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Thread: #BoycottFLORIDA

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    Senior Member Blackford Oakes's Avatar
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    Default #BoycottFLORIDA

    Quite a silly reaction and notion brought on by recent events.

    It would solve many an issue including MDW.

    Hope these people aren't bluffing.
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    Default Re: #BoycottFLORIDA

    In case those out of town are wondering, he is referring to the George Zimmerman trial, where Zimmerman was let free after killing a young black boy named Trayvon Martin in Florida. Martin was walking home with a packet of skittles from a 7-11. Zimmerman shot him after feeling his life was threatened.

    As a result of Zimmerman not going to jail, many celebs have started a Boycott of Florida, and will not perform here until the Stand Your Ground law is abolished.

    Can't say I blame them.
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    Senior Member GandJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: #BoycottFLORIDA

    Actually, the "stand your ground" law was not used in this case, and was not brought up in trial. They went for regular self-defense, which could be used in any state.

    The verdict came down to the fact that there were no witnesses as to who started the PHYSICAL attack on the other. That created the doubt, and hence the verdict.


    Glenn

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    Senior Member Doug's Avatar
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    Default Re: #BoycottFLORIDA

    There was no eyewitness as to how the confrontation began, but there was an earwitness. Rachel Jeantel was on the phone with Trayvon Martin at the moment the altercation started -- that much is independently verified through the cell phone records -- and she testified that Zimmerman walked up to Martin from behind and Martin asked him why he was following him. Per Jeantel, Zimmerman didn't identify himself, but instead demanded to know what he was doing in the neighborhood. If at that point, even before any physical contact, Martin believed an unlawful threat was imminent, he was actually justified at that moment in using force against Zimmerman to defend himself, in accordance with the Castle doctrine.

    I say we get rid of whatever law it is that allows a man with a gun to follow an unarmed minor around his neighborhood late at night (when said minor is committing no crime), to pursue him by car and on foot, even after being advised by 911 dispatch not to do so, to confront and fight with that minor, and to have the right to shoot him if the man should get scared when any of this is happening. I say we get rid of that law, whatever it's called.
    Last edited by Doug; 07-16-2013 at 03:47 PM.
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    Default Re: #BoycottFLORIDA

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug View Post
    I say we get rid of whatever law it is that allows a man with a gun to follow an unarmed minor around his neighborhood late at night (when said minor is committing no crime), to pursue him by car and on foot, even after being advised by 911 dispatch not to do so, to confront and fight with that minor, and to have the right to shoot him if the man should get scared when any of this is happening. I say we get rid of that law, whatever it's called.
    And that's why I have to say, Florida ain't looking too good right now. I am not surprised boycott Florida is trending on twitter.

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    Senior Member Blackford Oakes's Avatar
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    Default Re: #BoycottFLORIDA

    I've been good not to comment on what went down that rainy night in Sanford. Personaly, I never found the story line that appealing to be concieved into a nationwide novela. Unfortunately, the baiters sold it well.

    Not till the street scene has gotten uncivil, have I begun to be bothered with the whole mess.

    If you ask me, it's just fringe groups that have tapped into a warped societal psyche for some type of gain. Yet ...who of them cares about the rampant black on black killings in Chicago. It's all about politics and not wasting a manufactured crisis for gain.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...183789698.html

    Freedom of assembly is a right and privilege we should all enjoy peacefully and I don't even care if Florida gets boycotted. Stevie Wonder won't know the difference if he's in Cairo, Egypt or Ocala anyways.

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    rk
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    Default Re: #BoycottFLORIDA

    This looks like a win-win-win to me:

    (1) Some MDW participants stay away.

    (2) Some celebrities stay home.

    (3) Doug is back on the forum.
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    Senior Member GandJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: #BoycottFLORIDA

    Welcome back Doug. Good to see you here.

    According to the "ear"witness, Zimmerman confronted Martin verbally, which is not illegal. The physical attack by Martin was illegal (unless GZ swung first and Martin was defending himself). You can't legally swing at someone for them asking why you are there. Pounding their head into concrete on top of that.

    Have neither of you ever had someone ask why you were in a certain area? I have been asked. My in-laws used to live in a gated community in central FL (King's Point near Sun City Center), and the person did not recognize me as a resident. The fact that the person asked me why I was there does NOT give me the right to punch out the guy and beat his head into the ground. I explained why I was there, and all was good.


    It IS possible that Zimmerman was the first to take a swing, but we don't know. .. And that's the main point. When you don't know, you can't convict. Rachel Jeantel did not state who took the first swing/punch, etc. The physical evidence shows Zimmerman was the beat up one.

    Note: I am NOT saying that Zimmerman is absolutely innocent. He might be or might not be. He was voted "Not Guilty., which could mean "innocent", or it could mean that the state did not prove it's case beyond a reasonable doubt. There were certainly many doubts in this case. The jury certainly had some doubts.


    Glenn

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    Senior Member GandJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: #BoycottFLORIDA

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackford Oakes View Post
    I've been good not to comment on what went down that rainy night in Sanford. Personaly, I never found the story line that appealing to be concieved into a nationwide novela. Unfortunately, the baiters sold it well.

    Not till the street scene has gotten uncivil, have I begun to be bothered with the whole mess.

    If you ask me, it's just fringe groups that have tapped into a warped societal psyche for some type of gain. Yet ...who of them cares about the rampant black on black killings in Chicago. It's all about politics and not wasting a manufactured crisis for gain.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...183789698.html

    Freedom of assembly is a right and privilege we should all enjoy peacefully and I don't even care if Florida gets boycotted. Stevie Wonder won't know the difference if he's in Cairo, Egypt or Ocala anyways.



    Spot-on Blackwood. Over 70 shootings in Chicago over 4th of July week, and the racist media don't give a rats ass because it is black on black crime. ... And race baiters like Al Sharpton ignore it, despite the overwhelming majority of black male shooting victims are shot by other black males. He should be raising hell in Chicago, but that doesn't fit his racial agenda.

    Why are the celebrities not boycotting Chicago? ... One of the most corrupt and violent American cities.



    Glenn
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    Senior Member Blackford Oakes's Avatar
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    Default Re: #BoycottFLORIDA

    Did notice Doug's cameo. That's a welcomed spotting.

    What really set me off last night were the disturbances in Leimart Park. I love that neighborhood and have considered it ( still) a possible setting for relocation. It has it's charm with a tinge of bohemia. It also is a great point to access any part of the city. Ray Charles lived there as did Tom Bradley when he was mayor.

    LAPD says it's ready tonight if some want to turn a peaceful demonstration as an opportunity for a free flat screen. Hope Oakland PD and other enforcement agencies use a heavy hand if need be this point forward. Leadership from the Oval Office would be helpful to qualm the throes would be helpful but absent.

    In the spirit RK; this is a win-win if the Kardashian's never come back to Florida.

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    Default Re: #BoycottFLORIDA

    I believe if Zimmerman was black ,or had a latino last name(because his mom was latino) , the case would of never seen the light of day..
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    Default Re: #BoycottFLORIDA

    So people are boycotting a state because of a decision made by six people concerning a law that was not used or introduced to the jury?

    Boycotts hurt the people making minimum wage. Those are the first jobs to go and the poorest are the ones who suffer.

    People are stupid.

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    Senior Member Doug's Avatar
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    Default Re: #BoycottFLORIDA

    Quote Originally Posted by GandJ View Post
    Welcome back Doug. Good to see you here.

    According to the "ear"witness, Zimmerman confronted Martin verbally, which is not illegal. The physical attack by Martin was illegal (unless GZ swung first and Martin was defending himself). You can't legally swing at someone for them asking why you are there. Pounding their head into concrete on top of that.

    Glenn
    Hi Glenn, thanks for the welcome, I enjoy looking in on things now and again to see how everyone is doing.

    To address the issue you raised about Zimmerman's actions in pursuing not being illegal, making Martin's self-defense unjustified: it doesn't have to be illegal. Assuming the stand-your-ground law applies equally for Trayvon Martin as it did for George Zimmerman, self-defense in the state of Florida does not require that the aggressor be committing an illegal act at the time, only that the victim reasonably believed that an unlawful act was imminent. If you're walking through your neighborhood on a dark night and notice someone following closely behind you in a car, you try to run and see them get out of your car and start chasing after you, they come up behind you, refusing to identify themselves, I would feel such a belief was very reasonable. Remember, this situation didn't begin at the moment Zimmerman approached -- it began when he began tailing Martin in his car.

    Keep in mind that the stand-your-ground law doesn't require that the aggressor be committing an illegal act at the moment of the confrontation, and needn't have attacked the victim before the victim can defend himself. It only requires that the victim reasonably believe that an unlawful act was about to happen. If you feel this gives law is too easily prone to abuse or fatal consequences based on misinterpretation on the part of the victim in the heat of the moment, then you and I are actually in agreement that the law should be abolished.

    And, while it's true that the stand-your-ground law itself was not invoked by name in the trial, the wording of it was used in the instructions to the jury. They were told they could acquit Zimmerman if they believed he was justified in using deadly force:

    ''If George Zimmerman was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in any place where he had a right to be, he had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he reasonably believed that it was necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself.'' (Jury instructions)

    Unfortunately, in all the attention as to whether or not Zimmerman had a right to defend himself, the court forgot to address whether Trayvon had a right to defend himself. At least one juror stated that Zimmerman started the ball rolling in the events that happened that night, that he was the instigator, the aggressor. If that is true, and per the stand-your-ground law, Martin reasonably believed his life to be in danger, he was justified in using force, even deadly force. Aggressors have no right to claim self-defense.

    Moreover, I personally don't buy Zimmerman's account of the confrontation. It doesn't add up. People want to know why they're being chased before they just randomly decide to kill you. I think he grabbed Martin and tried to restrain him until the cops got there. When he did, Martin punched him in the nose -- but then Zimmerman tackled him and knocked him to the ground. He wasn't going to let this one get away. When Martin fought back, Zimmerman shot him. Just because there are two versions of what happened, that's not enough to create reasonable doubt. Both have to appeal to common sense, and Zimmerman's account, frankly, doesn't.

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    Senior Member GandJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: #BoycottFLORIDA

    Doug -



    I don't think that route of prosecution works for the following: .....

    We don't know the reason why Martin punched Zimmerman. It could have been either of these two reasons, among others:

    Was it:

    1.) As you say, Martin was in fear for his life (or severe bodily injury), and therefore Martin considered his punching of Zimmerman as self-defense? (That scenario would fit your theory. But we don't know if that was why Martin physically attacked Zimmerman.)


    or was it:

    2.) Martin was ticked off at Zimmerman for following him, and the punch/attack was an aggressive act by Martin, rather than a defensive act.


    So, there are reasonable doubts as to which scenario occurred. We don't have any extra insight or evidence that the jury did not hear that would indicate it was beyond a reasonable doubt, scenario #1.
    It could have been scenario #2. .... And, many would say, it was more likely scenario #2. But, it doesn't even have to be more likely that it is scenario #2, given the rules of our justice system.
    The state would have to prove it is as scenario #1, beyond any reasonable doubt, and nobody knows for certain why Martin physically attacked Zimmerman.


    Glenn
    Last edited by GandJ; 07-17-2013 at 02:14 PM.

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    Senior Member Doug's Avatar
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    Default Re: #BoycottFLORIDA

    Zimmerman's account is not equally plausible (a requirement for reasonable doubt) because the evidence didn't support it.
    1. His claim of Martin initiating th
    e encounter by asking him if he had a problem contradicted testimony by Rachel Jeantel.
    2. His claim of having his h
    ead slammed against concrete 20-25 times contradicted expert testimony concerning the severity of his wounds.
    3. His claim of b
    eing suffocated by Martin's hands while Martin was trying to reach for his gun is self-contradictory.
    4. It also contradicts th
    e defense claim that the yelling voice on the 911 recording was Zimmerman's, as it's impossible to yell if you can't breathe and there is a hand covering your mouth. The yelling on the tape was too continuous to allow any time for suffocation.
    5. It's also very improbable that Martin would have absolutely none of Zimmerman's blood or DNA from Zimmerman on his hands if he had a broken nose while Martin was covering it. This was obviously concocted as a way to justify self-defense.
    6. It's impossible for Zimmerman and Martin to be struggling for a gun hidden inside his pants while Martin is straddling him.
    7. W
    e already know Zimmerman was lying when he said that he got out of the car to look for a street address, because when you hear him on the tape, the operator isn't asking for an address yet, and it's obvious that he was getting out to pursue Martin -- so his credibility is already unreliable before you consider any of the above discrepancies.

    B
    eyond these facts, just applying common sense, thug or not, if someone is following you, the first thing you're going to want to know is why. You wouldn't immediately tell them they're going to die tonight without even knowing what they're up to, especially surrounded by apartment windows all around you with potential witnesses. That just doesn't make sense. And the jurors were allowed to use common sense in their decision, even if the eyewitnesses at that moment were lacking.
    Last edited by Doug; 07-17-2013 at 04:26 PM.

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    Senior Member GandJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: #BoycottFLORIDA

    <<...."Zimmerman's account is not equally plausible (a requirement for reasonable doubt) because the evidence didn't support it."...>>



    That's your opinion. The defense, and more importantly the jury, disagree with you.


    All of those points were countered by the defense, and their expert witnesses (and some witnesses for the prosecution that ended up helping the defense!).

    The jury, who heard as much or more evidence than you, I, or the rest of the public, sided with the defense. This was without any filtering (or outright deceiving) by the media.

    Speaking of deceiving by the media, it looks like Zimmerman will be suing NBC news for their doctored cut and paste audio which is what racially inflamed the situation early on and made Zimmerman look like a racist.


    Doctored version as played by NBC: ....

    Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good. He looks black.



    Actual un-doctored lines:

    Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good. Or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.

    Dispatcher: OK, and this guy — is he black, white or Hispanic?

    Zimmerman: He looks black



    Loads of people saw the doctored version on the Today show, and thought Zimmerman to be a racist, when in actuality, the only time he even brought up race was in answering the dispatchers question when asked what race the person was.

    NBC should pay big. They will likely settle out of court.



    Glenn
    Last edited by GandJ; 07-17-2013 at 05:36 PM.
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    Senior Member Doug's Avatar
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    Default Re: #BoycottFLORIDA

    Those contradictions weren't countered to my satisfaction, nor to the satisfaction of a great many people. Another thing that didn't add up was that if Trayvon were planning to go on the offensive after Zimmerman, he wouldn't do it while he was on the phone. He wouldn't have run to begin with, when Zimmerman started pursuing him. First Zimmerman said he ran, then, when he realized that didn't sound good for his scenario, he changed it to "skipped". That was pretty lame.

    The rest of us who weren't on the jury already know that both Zimmerman and his wife lied about money they had in their defense fund. The lead investigator described him as having a hero complex. People with hero complexes tend to create situations in effort to emerge from them as a hero, for example, starting fires and then putting them out or rescuing people. He wanted to impress his neighbors and the cops by catching one of the ones who "always get away." But he reveals his mindset when he refers to Trayvon as a "suspect", rather than as a "subject". A person is only a suspect after a crime has been committed -- otherwise they would be described as a subject.
    Last edited by Doug; 07-17-2013 at 05:51 PM.

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    Senior Member GandJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: #BoycottFLORIDA

    <<..."Those contradictions weren't countered to my satisfaction, nor to the satisfaction of a great many people.".....>>

    That's apparent that they did not satisfy you and a great many people. But, they were satisfactory to a great many people, including a particular 6 people on the jury. .... Interesting to note that over 2/3rds of lawyers, who are experts on law, burden of proof, and reasonable doubt, thought the verdict was correct.



    More stuff is arising pointing to this being a more of a political prosecution ....

    The special prosecutor Angela Corey was way out of line. Not to mention the withheld defense evidence over which she fired a whistleblower, even renowned lawyer Alan Derschowitz thinks that the special prosecutor needs to be brought up on ethics violations. ....

    ************
    Her lack of concern for the rule of law was almost immediately apparent. Shortly after she received the case she gave a press conference in which she disclosed that she was not seeking justice, but "justice for Trayvon":

    Angela Corey: The first thing my team and I did upon being appointed was to meet with Trayvon's family and pray with them. "We opened our meeting with prayer." Also, Ms. Corey thanked "all those people across this country who have sent positive energy and prayers our way," and she asked them to continue to pray for Trayvon's family and for her team. "Remember, it is Trayvon's family that are our constitutional victims...."

    In short, the press conference seemed calculated to declare Zimmerman guilty before an investigation was completed or a trial conducted, conduct, which runs counter to Florida law and American Bar Association professional standards.
    **************

  19. #19
    Senior Member Doug's Avatar
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    Default Re: #BoycottFLORIDA

    Quote Originally Posted by GandJ View Post

    In short, the press conference seemed calculated to declare Zimmerman guilty before an investigation was completed or a trial conducted, conduct, which runs counter to Florida law and American Bar Association professional standards.
    **************
    Are you sure? I won't disagree with you that Corey violated her professional ethics by withholding evidence, but prosecuting attorneys typically describe defendants as being guilty of a crime before a verdict is reached. That's kind of a red herring, though, because Corey's and NBC's conduct has nothing to do with Zimmerman's that night.

    To clear up 2 common misconceptions among Zimmerman supporters:

    1) It is not necessary for Zimmerman to have been engaging in any illegal activity in order for Trayvon Martin to be justified in defending himself. Zimmerman supporters are quick to say that Zimmerman wasn't violating any laws by getting out of his vehicle, pursuing, or confronting Martin. But that doesn't matter.

    2) It is not necessary for Zimmerman to have initiated a physical confrontation with Trayvon Martin in order for Martin to have a justification for defending himself, only that he believe that an aggressor's use of unlawful force was imminent. It is clear from Rachel Jeantel's testimony that Zimmerman's pursuit of him by car and on foot caused Martin to have a reasonable belief that Zimmerman had an imminent intention of using unlawful force against him. It doesn't even require that Martin be correct in his understanding, only that his belief be "reasonable".

    Here is the text of the Florida law:

    76.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony;
    Last edited by Doug; 07-17-2013 at 07:54 PM.

  20. #20
    Senior Member FredTheCatTravels's Avatar
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    Default Re: #BoycottFLORIDA

    Quote Originally Posted by GandJ View Post
    The special prosecutor Angela Corey was way out of line. Not to mention the withheld defense evidence over which she fired a whistleblower, even renowned lawyer Alan Derschowitz thinks that the special prosecutor needs to be brought up on ethics violations. ....

    ************
    Her lack of concern for the rule of law was almost immediately apparent. Shortly after she received the case she gave a press conference in which she disclosed that she was not seeking justice, but "justice for Trayvon":

    Angela Corey: The first thing my team and I did upon being appointed was to meet with Trayvon's family and pray with them. "We opened our meeting with prayer." Also, Ms. Corey thanked "all those people across this country who have sent positive energy and prayers our way," and she asked them to continue to pray for Trayvon's family and for her team. "Remember, it is Trayvon's family that are our constitutional victims...."

    In short, the press conference seemed calculated to declare Zimmerman guilty before an investigation was completed or a trial conducted, conduct, which runs counter to Florida law and American Bar Association professional standards.
    **************
    If my memory serves me correctly, the DA for the Duke Lacrosse case did something similar and was eventually disbarred.

    This case has sadly been a publicity stunt for Angela Corey and Al Sharpton. These are two disgusting individuals.

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