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Thread: I've made up my mind. It's Romney !

  1. #41
    Senior Member Doug's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've made up my mind. It's Romney !

    @Glenn - all the more reason to strengthen Medicare so people like Steve won't be denied. It's not like a private insurer would've helped him out any better. Most people who live from paycheck to paycheck just don't have the extra cash to fork out for a premium, and even if they do, a lot of insurers are very picky about how much they will cover, what conditions they will cover, and what the maximum pay out will be.

    Ron Paul's own campaign manager, Kent Snyder, died penniless at age 49 from viral pneumonia because he couldn't afford his $400,000 hospital bill and the cost of health insurance.
    Last edited by Doug; 09-18-2011 at 02:20 PM.

  2. #42
    Senior Member GandJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've made up my mind. It's Romney !

    I agree that Medicare needs serious reform. However, the interpretation of the Kent Snyder story is a classic case of how these types of stories get distorted, and then the (wrong) story of how he died gets spread, and people start believing it.
    I'm not saying it was intentional, but the way you related the story, it leaves one thinking Mr. Snyder died BECAUSE he couldn't afford to pay.

    You said,
    <<.."....died penniless at age 49 from viral pneumonia BECAUSE he couldn't afford his $400,000 hospital bill and the cost of health insurance."...>>


    [I capitalized the word "because" for emphasis]


    However, after reading the link, nowhere does the article say he died BECAUSE he couldn't afford the bill or insurance. He left a 400K bill after he died. ... But, it did not say he was denied treatment.
    In life threatening cases, it is the law that he must be tread, despite ability to pay.


    Glenn
    Last edited by GandJ; 09-18-2011 at 05:11 PM.

  3. #43
    Senior Member Doug's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've made up my mind. It's Romney !

    That's true. You can be treated, even if you never pay them for it. You just can't pick up your prescriptions from the pharmacy. End result is the same. Death.
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  4. #44
    Senior Member GandJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've made up my mind. It's Romney !

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug View Post
    That's true. You can be treated, even if you never pay them for it. You just can't pick up your prescriptions from the pharmacy. End result is the same. Death.

    Hospitals have pharmacies within them, and will treat indigent patients with drugs, as needed.



    Glenn

  5. #45
    Senior Member Doug's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've made up my mind. It's Romney !

    While you're in the hospital, but once you're discharged, they don't give you free prescriptions. Take for example the recent case of a 24-year-old man who died from a tooth infection.

    Faced with the fact that he could only afford either the antibiotics or the pain killers, the man, in excruciating pain, opted for the pain killers...and died.


    http://abcnews.go.com/Health/insuran...ry?id=14438171


    "People want to believe there's a safety net that catches all of these people, and there isn't," said Dr. Glenn Stream, president-elect of the American Academy of Family Physicians. He noted that it is often young men who are the most likely to lack health coverage.


    Dr. Jim Jirjis, director of general internal medicine at Vanderbilt University, said people, like Willis, without access to care often die of conditions that were much more common decades ago.


    "He [Willis] might as well have been living in 1927," Jirjis said. "All of the advances we've made in medicine today and are proud of, for people who don't have coverage, you might as well never have developed those."


    There are a number of free dental clinics in operation around the country, where dentists volunteer to provide care to those without health insurance. But even if Willis had access to a free dental clinic, Stream said he still may not have been able to get the care he needed for his infection. "The wait is often months at these clinics, and this young man died within two weeks of his problem," Stream said.
    Silverstein operates three free dental clinics in the San Diego area. "We're overwhelmed right now," he said. "We can't take any new patients."
    Last edited by Doug; 09-18-2011 at 09:51 PM.

  6. #46
    Senior Member GandJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've made up my mind. It's Romney !

    Without getting too far afield, it is always possible to find exceptional stories. I recall hearing that toothache story. It made the news because it was so exceptional. I recently got an Ammoxicillin script from my dentist. The cash price (not insurance) price was less than $5. $4 and change, if I recall. There has to be more to the toothache story that we are not getting.
    Regardless, I agree that Medicare/Medicaid needs re-vamping.
    As for Kent Snyder, did he die because he could not afford to buy his presciption? You said he died for lack of money or insurance. So, was he okay in the hospital and later died at home for lack of meds? I can't find anything indicating that.


    Glenn

  7. #47
    Senior Member Doug's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've made up my mind. It's Romney !

    All I know about Snyder's case was that he died penniless because he was unable to afford health insurance to pay for his hospitalization and that his family was left to pay his $400,000 bill. I suspect the $4 and change you paid for your antibiotic was a co-pay, unless your insurance doesn't cover dental prescriptions.

    However, you do raise an important question: while hospitals are required to treat the uninsured, do they receive equal treatment? In a recent Washington Post article, this doctor says no:

    Although the uninsured look like any other patients, it's easy to spot them: Their charts have places for their address, emergency contact and insurance information; an empty insurance box is a telltale sign. Some doctors examine this sheet before examining the patient -- a practice we refer to as a wallet biopsy.

    The 1986 Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act declares that hospitals cannot refuse care to critically ill patients and that the physician on call must treat them. Internists with privileges at a hospital (like my friend) are usually part of the on-call rotation for the emergency room.
    "I used to get angry every time the emergency room admitted an uninsured patient," he said. "I would try to spend less time with them -- 20 minutes instead of 30 -- and try to get them out of the hospital quickly and hope they would not come to my clinic."
    It's not uncommon for patients with no insurance or poor insurance to receive different treatment. A 2006 study of 25 primary care private practices in the Washington area showed that in nearly one in four encounters, physicians reported adjusting their clinical management based on a patient's insurance status; nearly 90 percent of physicians admitted to making such adjustments. For patients with no insurance, alterations occurred 43 percent of the time; and for the privately insured, just 19 percent.
    Some of these adjustments make little difference: Uninsured patients received more generic drugs and multiple drugs. A doctor might prescribe two generic pills for high blood pressure -- an ACE inhibitor and a diuretic, which together would cost $20 for a given period -- instead of a combined brand-name pill, which would cost $241.
    The impact of other decisions is more worrying. A heart surgeon told me he operates on uninsured patients but schedules them for the end of the day; if other cases take longer than expected, the uninsured get bumped. Some gastroenterologists are quick to perform endoscopies or colonoscopies on insured patients; not so for the uninsured.
    Some uninsured patients forgo tests or treatment. According to a 2003 study, participation in screening tests for breast cancer, prostate cancer or high cholesterol was 30 percentage points higher in some instances among people with insurance than among those without. Once the uninsured become eligible for Medicare, that gap shrinks.
    Although the uninsured can be guaranteed care by coming to an emergency room, not all care is available there. Nor should it be. Estimates suggest that an ER visit is six times more expensive than a clinic visit.
    Take the story I heard of an uninsured 31-year-old man who came to the emergency room complaining of pain in his groin. A CT scan revealed enlarged lymph nodes and what looked like a tumor above his left kidney. This was not the kind of problem that the ER would take care of; nor was the patient so ill that he required admission. So the ER doctor referred the patient to the urologist on call for a follow-up office visit.
    The patient never went. A year and a half later, he showed up in the ER, with worse pain. The tumor had spread to his testicles, which were surgically removed a couple of months ago. A new urologist discovered that the patient had an endocrine tumor, which could have been managed with medication.
    That patient's experience is reflected in research. A 2007 study by the American Cancer Society showed that patients with no insurance have lower survival rates for breast and colorectal cancer than insured patients. Similarly, a 2004 report in Health Affairs showed that people ages 51 to 61 with diabetes, hypertension or heart disease had a mortality rate of 12.5 percent over eight years if they had insurance and 18.8 percent if they had no insurance.
    There may be a few among the uninsured who prefer to buy $149.99 sneakers than health insurance. Far more common are stories of preexisting conditions that make insurance unaffordable or jobs that offer none. My primary care friend told me about a patient who had left a boil untreated until it needed surgical drainage and intravenous antibiotics. When asked why didn't have insurance, the man said he had lost his job and was recently divorced. Stories like that helped my friend realize what injustices the uninsured face.
    Makeshift Solutions

    At the hospital, I avoid looking upfront at the patient's insurance status. In my office, my receptionist asks uninsured patients to bring a deposit of $50 to $75 and offers a payment plan. Some surgeons expect a $500 down payment before an operation.

    I do not discriminate at an individual level, but many doctors, including myself, discriminate more broadly by moving our clinics to wealthier parts of the city, for example. To compensate for the cost of treating uninsured patients (about 10 percent of my practice), I inflate my charges for all patients, thus increasing my income from commercial insurance. According to a Kaiser Commission report, uncompensated care for the uninsured cost $41 billion in 2004 , the majority of which was paid by the government.
    In my city, Memphis, as in many other cities, doctors are applying their own makeshift bandages to our hemorrhaging system often in collaboration with faith-based institutions. One Memphis doctor -- who is also a Methodist minister -- founded the Church Health Center, which cares for more than 50,000 patients. The city's Muslim community has a clinic alongside the mosque where my partner volunteers. At the Hindu temple clinic where my wife and I volunteer, I counsel patients on vaccines and infections.
    And as that foul odor wafts through my consciousness, I advise them on how they should try to get health insurance.
    Last edited by Doug; 09-19-2011 at 02:44 PM.

  8. #48
    Senior Member GandJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've made up my mind. It's Romney !

    QUOTE=Doug;104758]All I know about Snyder's case was that he died penniless because he was unable to afford health insurance to pay for his hospitalization and that his family was left to pay his $400,000 bill. I suspect the $4 and change you paid for your antibiotic was a co-pay, unless your insurance doesn't cover dental prescriptions.[/QUOTE]


    No, it was not a co-pay. Some antibiotics like ammoxicillin are very cheap. In fact. they're so cheap that the pharmacy in our local grocery chain was offering them free for a while (you still needed a script from your doctor). It was likely a promotion to get more people in the store, and it didn't cost them much, as those antibiotics are so cheap. Out of curiosity, I just went to Wal-Mar's site, and it has many anti-biotics for $4 for a 30-day supply, and $10 for a 90-day supply.....cash price. No insurance

    As for Mr. Snyder, the part I'm disputing is you said he died BECAUSE he couldn't afford to pay. We see no evidence saying that is why he died. He might have still died if he had Bill Gates' money, for all we know.



    Glenn
    Last edited by GandJ; 09-19-2011 at 04:03 PM.

  9. #49
    Senior Member Doug's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've made up my mind. It's Romney !

    Glenn: to clarify, Kent Snyder received the treatment in the hospital, but it bankrupted him and he died penniless. As far as I know, the lack of insurance wasn't the cause of death in his case. However, people who can't afford health insurance or whose health insurance doesn't cover them sufficiently in certain areas shouldn't have to go bankrupt and leave their survivors to pay $400,000 hospital bills.

  10. #50
    Senior Member GandJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've made up my mind. It's Romney !

    One thing that is puzzling is how his mother ended up with the bill. Snyder was an adult. He wasn't a dependent of his mother. If I can't pay a bill, my mother does not end up with it. I wonder if she was somehow a co-guarantor of the bills? Or, maybe she felt obligated to pay, even if she was not legally obligated? We'll probably never know.
    Anyway, they raised $34, 870.53. Apparently, the rest was written off. That'll end up eventually being "paid for" by everyone through higher hospital rates, etc. It's probably a whole separate topic, but speaking of high hospital fees, those are a major issue. Much of it is caused by "C.Y.A." medicine which is done to defend against ambulance chasing jackyl lawyers. It's a HUGE cost. Ask some of the docs who are on MB411, or any docs/surgeons, what their liability insurance costs are. Many docs.... especially OB/Gyns ...are getting out of the practice over it. The costs are ridiculous.
    Tort reform... Medicare reform. It'll all be part of discussion for the forseeable future.



    Glenn

  11. #51
    Jim
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    Default Re: I've made up my mind. It's Romney !

    Doug I feel your pain; however, in my opinion the Republicans will write the checks for medicare just a quickly as the Democrats.
    What my fear is: There will be no "Checks to write" if you don't get someone in office with some "LEADERSHIP"!!

    This clown we have now, isn't taking us anywhere. We have no direction. Even his own party has lost confidence!

    I liked the guy in 2008. Enough is enough.

    Switch it up. You don't re-employ bad leadership.

  12. #52
    Editor Carlos Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've made up my mind. It's Romney !

    We gave Bush eight years even though he demonstrated he was clearly incompetent in the first term.

    So I'm willing to give Obama another four years.

    As far as the healthcare issue goes, why are so many people so reluctant to pay into a system that might help others but have no problem paying for endless wars?
    laurab, Catt and ikon12 like this.

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    Default Re: I've made up my mind. It's Romney !

    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos Miller View Post
    We gave Bush eight years even though he demonstrated he was clearly incompetent in the first term.

    So I'm willing to give Obama another four years.

    As far as the healthcare issue goes, why are so many people so reluctant to pay into a system that might help others but have no problem paying for endless wars?
    <<- Word! (To all of this.)
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  14. #54
    Senior Member Doug's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've made up my mind. It's Romney !

    Like I said earlier, I'm not really happy with any of the choices, and fear that the real decisions are being made by unseen power brokers behind the scenes, while our leaders are only ornamental.
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    Default Re: I've made up my mind. It's Romney !

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug View Post
    Like I said earlier, I'm not really happy with any of the choices, and fear that the real decisions are being made by unseen power brokers behind the scenes, while our leaders are only ornamental.
    It's all about the Skull & Bones.

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    Jim
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    Default Re: I've made up my mind. It's Romney !

    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos Miller View Post
    We gave Bush eight years even though he demonstrated he was clearly incompetent in the first term.

    So I'm willing to give Obama another four years.

    As far as the healthcare issue goes, why are so many people so reluctant to pay into a system that might help others but have no problem paying for endless wars?
    You will never run my corporation.

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    Default Re: I've made up my mind. It's Romney !

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post
    You will never run my corporation.
    Even most corporations give healthcare to employees.

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    Editor Matt Meltzer's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've made up my mind. It's Romney !

    Except Wal Mart

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    Default Re: I've made up my mind. It's Romney !

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Meltzer View Post
    Except Wal Mart
    But then again, I would never work for Walmart.
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    Senior Member Blackford Oakes's Avatar
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    Default Re: I've made up my mind. It's Romney !

    I forgot to mention I reserve the right to cjange my mind.

    Watching a replay of Christie's keynote address at the Reagan Library of earlier today. He just might be the guy.

    Hope he throws his hat in.

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